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August 10, 2007

Comments

Barbara Moore

Mark, I've seen just a few images, for our catalog, and I had a feeling that this deck was something special. I did consider ordering it through Alida but told myself to be patient and wait until we got it in-house.

I can't wait to get my hands on it!

Congrats! What a fantastic achievement.

Patricia (a/k/a Roswila)

Congratulations, Mark! It's now at the top of my must have deck list. You had me at the "Six of Pentacles." :-) (I have admired Lazzarrini's art work since getting the Manga Tarot.)

What I keep thinking and wondering about is just how does a designer get his ideas across to an artist? E.g., did you reference the symbols in the three "source" decks? Did you write lengthy paragraphs saying just what symbol should appear where, in what color, etc.? It boggles my mind to try to imagine the process. :-)

Mark McElroy

Thanks, Barbara ... and thanks to you, too, Patricia!

With regard to getting ideas across to an artist: different decks (and different artists) call for different processes.

Some deck scripts I've written provided only very general guidelines. For these, I supplied only what was absolutely critical, leaving the perspective, the framing, and the rest of the content of the scene to the artist's imagination.

For the Lo Scarabeo Tarot, though, the script was unusually specific. Because it's an esoteric deck, it was very important to have certain symbols, figures, and colors in certain places ... certain expressions on certain faces ... and certain card elements represented *just so.*

On occasion, I did refer to the source cards and say things like, "Suit markers, arranged as they are on the TdM Nine of Swords, appear on the banner on the wall," or "Coins in the upper hand should bear the same markings as the coins seen on the Thoth version of this deck."

I can barely draw stick people, so I marveled at every image Anna produced; she really has a knack for turning words into vibrant, evocative pictures. For every illustration on every card, I owe Anna a debt of gratitude.

Patricia (a/k/a Roswila)

Thanks for sharing a bit of how you transmitted your intriguing ideas to Anna. I am always amazed at this sort of collaborative creative endeavor. And yes, I can imagine that Anna's artistic sensitivity is tremendous.

mimers

Mark, I must say that this is one deck I am very much looking forward to acquiring! The thought of having a deck that combines three systems like Marsailles, Thoth and RWS is quite exciting.

Can you share with us your favorite card?? The one that you felt perfectly blended the three systems together.

~Amy

Mark McElroy

Hi, Amy. Thanks for your interest in the deck! Fusing the three traditions had many challenges, especially in the minors, where:

- the TdM features suit symbols in evocative arrangements and some decorative elements, but little else.

- the Thoth features evocatively arranged suit symbols, plus Harris' elegant, almost abstract depictions of elemental energies.

- the Waite-Smith features fully illustrated scenes.

Sometimes, especially when the source illustrations were wildly divergent, I had to make a judgment call as to which two sources would have the greater influence over a card's final appearance.

At the same time, I also had to be faithful to some project goals:

- This wasn't to become a collage deck, with concrete elements lifted from each of the three decks and pasted willy-nilly into the illustrations.

- We wanted illustrated minors.

- We wanted to be inspired by, but not constrained by, the source material.

- We also wanted each card to incorporate our own original contribution to its energy and meaning.

But back to your question: what's an example of a favorite card ... or a card that represents an especially successful synthesis of the three sources?

Actually, two come immediately to mind: the Two and Three of Cups.

The Two of Cups features the familiar Waite-Smith couple, dressed as bride and groom, approaching each other with two upraised cups. The lion/angel above their heads has become the mouth of a fountain; the flow from this fountain cascades down an elaborate piece of statuary, carved to resemble the "entwined dolphins and lotus" motif found on the Thoth version of the card. In the distant background, another couple leans into the fountain's spray to fill their two upraised cups (TdM).

The Three is a good example of an effort to incorporate the energy of certain sources without actually representing their iconography on the final card. On it, we see three dancing women (Waite-Smith). They are standing in a vat of grapes decorated with a motif from the TdM Three of Cups. Their dance, of course, creates wine. (Crowley, writing about the Three of Cups, said, "The idea of love has come to fruition," and he decorated his cups with ripe pomegranates.)

The resulting illustration is unique, but very faithful, I think, to the energy and meaning assigned to all three source cards.

Matt

Hi Mark. I'm definitely interested in this deck. It must be difficult for you to bear the responsibility for combining (which to me sounds like more than just being inspired by) three widely divergent traditions... To be honest the cards already strike me as being very much based on the Rider-Waite and only to a small extent on the Tarot de Marseille.

I have a few questions (though I'm sure I'll have more once I receive the deck ;-) ):

- You speak of the Tarot de Marseille as a "deck", but of course it's not a deck but a pattern. So what then was the source deck you talk about? The Noblet, the Dodal, the Conver, the Grimaud, the Camoin...?

- Did you have a lot of experience working with the Tarot de Marseille before you were asked by Lo Scarabeo to do this deck?

- Why did you decide to have Justice as trump XI and, I assume, Strength as trump VIII, when it's the other way around in both the Tarot de Marseille AND the Thoth?

Thanks in advance!

Mark McElroy

Matt wrote: It must be difficult for you to bear the responsibility for combining (which to me sounds like more than just being inspired by) three widely divergent traditions.

Mark replies: Difficult? Not at all! Having been a part of the Tarot community for more than a decade now, I've got first-hand knowledge of how efforts to innovate and push the envelope are always greeted with enthusiastic and universal acclaim.

Matt wrote: You speak of the Tarot de Marseille as a "deck", but of course it's not a deck but a pattern.

Mark replies: I had a friend who made such distinctions once. It made him very popular at parties.

Matt wrote: So what then was the source deck you talk about? The Noblet, the Dodal, the Conver, the Grimaud, the Camoin...?

Mark: Matt! You're such a name dropper!

The majority of the time, I worked with the Lo Scarabeo Ancient Tarot of Marseilles, which, I believe, is a reprint of the 1760 Conver deck.

When feeling frisky, I worked with my Universal Tarot de Marseilles, which I believe is based on a Swiss deck created by Claude Burdel (though, obviously, recolored).

When I was feeling really naughty, Matt, I'd sneak a glance at my Hadar. Oh, the scandal!

Matt asked: Did you have a lot of experience working with the Tarot de Marseille before you were asked by Lo Scarabeo to do this deck?

Mark replies: The fourth deck I ever purchased was the U.S. Games version of the Dodal. Like many people I know, I read with it on and off for years before really growing to appreciate it.

For a period of about a year, my personal and public readings were conducted almost exclusively with decks from the Marseilles tradition. Notes from this period gave rise to observations I made on Marseilles symbolism in the Absolute Beginner's Guide to Tarot.

Today, I read with the Universal Marseilles, a Marseilles deck I picked up in Venice, and my newly acquired Noblet about forty percent of the time.

But is that *a lot* of experience? Oh, Matt ... who can say?

Matt wrote: Why did you decide to have Justice as trump XI and, I assume, Strength as trump VIII, when it's the other way around in both the Tarot de Marseille AND the Thoth?

Mark replies: Perversity.

No, seriously, Matt -- I've worked with both arrangements, and I, personally, for reasons both esoteric and practical, like Strength as VIII and Justice as XI.

Given that I plan to read with this deck for most of the rest of my adult life, I stuck with that arrangement.

If the choice offends, it's nothing that a border-ectomy (or a good black marker) won't obliterate!

M.

James

Mark,
Just received my copy of the deck today from Alida. I ordered it from Alida, as I have been patiently waiting for this deck for months, and couldn't wait any longer!
The deck is a sight to behold, as I knew it would be with art by Anna Lazzarini (I love her style, as I have the LS Manga). Her work here does not disappoint.
I have been an admirer of your work for some time, but out of all the decks you have worked on, this is by far my favorite. I can see this deck becoming my sole reading deck.
Like you, I think I've fallen in love with this deck; it's just perfect!

Matt

Mark, my jaw dropped when I read your reply to my post! It seems that I irritated you considerably, but I can assure you they were genuine questions out of genuine interest. I'm not a hater - the deck is in the mail as we speak. IMO the sarcasm in your reply was uncalled for.

Mark McElroy

Matt wrote: IMO the sarcasm in your reply was uncalled for.

Mark replies: Oh, Matt! I fear you've mistaken cantankerousness for callousness. My intentions, I assure you, were none but the best.

Mark McElroy

James:

I'm so delighted to hear that you enjoy the deck! I'm very, very lucky to be working with Anna and other artists of her caliber, and talents like hers humble me every day.

Here's hoping the deck will be a great companion for you for years to come!

M.

Freesparrow

I think this deck is very opportunistic exercise aimed at a jaded American market and promoted by someone who is renowned for popularism (and a little sensationalism). I am not a personal fan of yours, Mark, sorry.

I haven't purchased any of your work and have refrained from public comment on the various tarot forums you visit from time to time but this "combo" deck makes me a little sick at heart. I can't for the life of me see why you would want to combine the Tarot traditions in such a tasteless way. It's a little like putting tomato sauce and ice cream together.

Freesparrow

My apologies for my somewhat tart earlier reply.

A few years ago, in another place, some of us were imagining what would happen when and if Tarot became commercial and popular in the US. This latest attempt to combine some of the main traditions seems to echo our worst dreams at that time.

But wait! I am taking the whole thing too seriously.

What we are seeing now should perhaps be called the McTarot Deck. I was, perhaps, inevitable.

"Mark"et driven, even?

Janet Boyer

Oh, yes...God forbid if Tarot were accessible to the "unwashed masses"...

Erin

In the immortal words of Conan O'Brian "KEEP COOL MA BABIES, KEEP COOL"!!

First, I would have thought that the RWS was the McTarot since it is now very widely available and copied within inches of its life.

Second, if Mark wants to make his deck this way, and if he feels that this is the best way to make the best deck possible, then more power to him. That's his buisness. I would love to make a deck one day. I am limited by my low artistic skills and the constant feeling that everybody has done everything already.

Third, Tarot should be available to everyone. It is a very helpful and beautiful tool, and I'm sure the world would be a better place if more people had a deck to help them make better decisions, and anything else they want to do with it. It's helped me keep my sanity, that's for sure.

Fourth, I like the look of this deck, and I would happily buy it. And if it works, then that's the most important thing.

Getting off of soap box....

freesparrow

Well. the term "unwashed masses" was yours, Janet. People have used the Marseille in its various forms in Europe for centuries.

And the RWS is certainly not the McTarot Deck.

But I think that this amalgamation of all very different traditions merely openly manifests the McTarot Tradition which has been hovering in the background for a little while.

Let us not make too much of it. Each of us can still choose the tradition we wish to follow.

Mark McElroy

Confidential to FreeSparrow:

I am always amused by critics who, with one breath, condemn my work and who, with the next, confess they've always avoided it. Everyone has an opinion, I suppose, but it seems to me that the best opinions would be those informed by practice ... not prejudice.

I suppose that all this wringing of one's hands and bemoaning the End of Tarot as We Know It must be, on some level, satisfying. But I also wonder: what might happen if the hand-wringers channeled all that energy into creating books and decks of their own?

Creating something -- reaching, trying, sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding -- is much harder than, say, taking clever potshots at other people's work. But I can assure you -- as someone knows first-hand the joy of creation -- that the creative path offers a level of fulfillment that mere critics will never attain.

My sincere wish is that your own creative efforts will give you just one-tenth the joy I feel over having completed and being able to work with the Lo Scarabeo Tarot!

Good journey to you! :)

Mark

Freesparrow

Thanks for your good wishes, Mark.

I have read much about your work on various forums, seen scans of cards and looked at books in shops.

But my reaction was too quick. I should have given a more thoughtful response and to do that I need to see more of the new deck than the scans I have seen.

I guess I enjoy the difference in the historic traditions and I can continue to do so. I don't need to be concerned about an amalgamation.

My best wishes to you also.

Barbara Moore

Llewellyn got the shipment just yesterday and I was lucky enough to score a copy. Love it, love it, love it.

But Mark, a companion book would be lovely, especially for those of us who may be familiar with one tradition but not the other two. Any plans for such a book?

What a wonderful accomplishment! I think it's one of the most interesting and skillful explorations of tarot to happen in a long time.
Barbara

Lee Bursten

Ah, "freesparrow," an instantly recognizable voice from the past (albeit with a new name). Brings back fond memories!

I find the fuss from these suddenly anonymous Marseille worshippers to be very amusing. The RWS itself was based in large part on the Marseille, so any deck which is influenced by the RWS is also indirectly influenced by the Marseille. So all of "freesparrow"'s objections to the Lo Scarabeo Tarot would apply equally to any deck influenced by either the Marseille or the RWS.

And how dare that upstart Oswald Wirth base his deck on the Marseille, while adding in his own ideas. Oh, the humanity! Where is the outrage? ;)

But of course, these are the same people who think that after around 1900 or so, no author/artist has a right to create a tarot deck. So why they would even bother commenting about the Lo Scarabeo Tarot is beyond me.

I'm very much looking forward to this deck. Judging from the scans, it combines gorgeous artwork, a traditional RWS framework, some pictorial elements from the Thoth, and Mark's own delightfully idiosyncratic touches. Who could ask for anything more? I can't wait to try reading with it.

Lee Bursten

By the way, when I referred to "Marseille worshippers" above, I'm not talking about people who love Marseille decks. I love Marseille decks myself. I'm referring very particularly to a very small group of very intolerant people. You know who you are.

Matt

[quote=Lee]I find the fuss from these suddenly anonymous Marseille worshippers to be very amusing.[/quote]

Which "Marseille worshippers" have replied here to Mark's entry? I mean, what gave you the idea that they worship the Tarot de Marseille and are objected to decks being influenced by it? And who here do you believe thinks no tarot decks should have been created after about 1900? Seems to me like you're amalgamating and grossly exaggerating.

[quote=Lee]And how dare that upstart Oswald Wirth base his deck on the Marseille, while adding in his own ideas. Oh, the humanity! Where is the outrage? ;)[/quote]

Are you comparing the Oswald Wirth to the Lo Scarabeo? There are some MAJOR differences between them, as I'm sure you're well aware - one being, for example, that the Lo Scarabeo is only based on the Tarot de Marseille to a small extent and is largely based on the RWS, while claiming to be otherwise. Again, I didn't see anyone who objected to decks being influenced by the Marseille at all.

[quote=Lee]Judging from the scans, it combines gorgeous artwork, a traditional RWS framework, some pictorial elements from the Thoth, and Mark's own delightfully idiosyncratic touches.[/quote]

I tend to agree, yes.

[quote=Lee]Who could ask for anything more?[/quote]

Well, how about asking for what this deck promises to be? Namely a successful combination of all three traditions. Because, again, there is VERY little direct influence from the Marseille, and, like you said, "some" pictorial elements from the Thoth, while the entire framework is indeed RWS-based (some cards are even very RWS-clone-like, e.g. the Seven of Swords).

Mark McElroy

Just out of curiosity, Matt: in your opinion, what would a "successful" combination of all three traditions incorporate?

For the moment, let's set aside what my deck does or does not do. What would your solution look like, overall? In what concrete ways would it differ from the Lo Scarabeo Tarot?

What would the illustration on the Seven of Swords be? And, in your mind, how would your version be a "more successful" combination of traditions than the Lo Scarabeo Tarot?

In my experience, once people start this exercise -- once the conversation shifts from complaint to construction -- an important shift in perception occurs.

:-)

M.

Lee Bursten

"Which "Marseille worshippers" have replied here to Mark's entry?"

Hey, I said "you know who you are." If you know I'm not referring to you, then you don't need to worry about it. If the shoe fits, wear it; if not, don't.

"[...] the Lo Scarabeo is only based on the Tarot de Marseille to a small extent and is largely based on the RWS, while claiming to be otherwise."

I don't believe Mark or anyone else has claimed that the Lo Scarabeo Tarot contains elements from RWS, Thoth, and Marseille in exactly equal proportions.

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